TBS 6921 release date

[BluetoothBG]

This post is mainly a reply to Geezerjem post in his topic but due to Cody's request I post it here:

Hi Geezerjem,

This evening I had a little more time to play with the card and the BS Tool, and now I see some difference from your results - in the LOW band there is no need to convert the BS Frequency, just round it up and it is real frequency.

22kHz OFF, V (950 - 2150 MHz)

(what I mean is that the freq in the second column is the real value)


22kHz ON, V (950 - 2150 MHz)

Situation here is little different - it seems that neither of the frequencies is correct or at least I can not find it. So I guess that you are right - the card is still scanning the LOW band (22kHz OFF) and just adds different value to the results...

@Cody,
Thanks for the reply on this topic, I am sure that next versions of the BS Tool will be much more useful because of the feedback and given the fact that you're doing great with everything so far.

@BlindFaith,
I'm sure that Cody is really busy with his work and TBS is nothing like "some chinese backyard" given the quality of their products. I'm not trying to be his "lawyer", just sharing my observations. Give them some time and you'll be surprised from the positive result.

[BlindFaith]

@BluetoothBG,

The confusion was in fact caused by your setup. You've tried to scan high band transponders (22KHz on). The 850MHz correction frequency (see my table) is just the difference between the LOFs (10600-9750) Dunno whether it's a bug of the tool or the driver but high band blind scan fails and eventually crashes the system. IMHO even in a beta version this should have been checked before the release.

The 2nd and more important point is the blind scan performance. Your scan should cover the entire vertical plane in the low band -> 22kHz OFF, V (950 - 2150 MHz). Tests 1-3 show 3 different results. The lowest frequency you've got is 11215MHz but there are at least 8 more transponders with lower frequencies starting with 10716V, 9920, 7/8. All are DTH-transponders (http://www.flysat.com/1west.php) and no feeds. Either your reception is poor or there are more possible bugs (the other scans are redundant cos they are affected by the 22KHz bug).

@all, I'm more interested in carriers with (very) low symbol rates

@Cody,
Your presence and your help is very much appreciated. (also: no support, no sales )

Regards,
Steve

[Geezerjem]

Hi all,

@Cody's request, I'm putting posts about the BS tool here now, instead of https://shop.tbsdtv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=191&start=0

@BluetoothBG

That's really wierd. The BS frequencies that you get directly from the tool have a different problem to mine (for the low band). Mine aren't even in the right ball park. I (after dividing by 1000 to get MHz) get between 7605 and 9621, both far below the expected 10700 to 12750. I don't know if you've sorted yours by frequency, by mine all come out of the tool in descending order. It really looks like the 6921 and 8921 BSTools produce different results (maybe different versions of the same tool).

Mine's 2.0.0.9 and none of the frequencies found are correct.

Just looked back at your screenshots and the results are in ascending order. The tools have got to be different.

[cody]

Jem, please, clarify for me in few words what's your LNB specifications, because as i already mentioned the calculations is:

"transponder frequency" (in MHz) = LNB LOF (in MHz) + carrier_ferquency (in MHz)

22 kHz ON means LOF2 should be used in the above equation and OFF means LOF1 should be used.

and you have the "carrier_frequency" from the tool as result of the blind-scan and LOF1/LOF2 comes from the LNB.

anyway, i believe it's better to prepare some small guide with screenshots and example on some common satellite like Hotbird 13E, which should clarify the things a little.

[cody]

ok, here is my guide, which is nothing comprehensive, but i hope it will add some clarity.

first of all, i'm currently working on other projects and not on 8921/6921 and so just as a regular user i downloaded from the website what my colleagues prepared and put there as driver package and blind-scan tool, which means i'm using exactly the same driver/software as you.

second, during the tests i used TBS 8921 and Universal LNB, which means:

- LNB local oscillator for low-band frequencies (LOF1) is: 9750 MHz
- switch frequency between low-band and high-band is: 11700 MHz
- LNB local oscillator for high-band frequencies (LOF2) is: 10600 MHz
- switching between low-band and high-band local oscillator is done via 22 kHz tone

and my dish is pointed to Astra 19.2E.

so, i blind-scanned small frequency interval of 950-1100MHz, low-band (i.e. 22 kHz tone is OFF):

- "Vertical" scan:
picture 01) http://www.imagebam.com/image/6ee898116164537
picture 02) http://www.imagebam.com/image/af0158116164797

- "Horizontal" scan:
picture 03) http://www.imagebam.com/image/63af68116164928
picture 04) http://www.imagebam.com/image/40d132116165006

ok, before analyze the blind-scan results on "picture 02)" and "picture 04)" let first predict what to expect, because after all Astra 19.2E list of transponders is widely available on lyngsat.com, flysat.com, etc.

as i mentioned i scanned frequency interval of 950-1100MHz, low-band or with my Universal LNB that means LOF1 is active or thus effectively i scanned transponder frequencies:

(using the equation "transponder frequency" (in MHz) = LNB LOF (in MHz) + carrier_frequency (in MHz)")

in the interval 950+LOF1=950+9750=10700MHz to 1100+LOF1=950+9750=10850MHz and according to:

http://www.lyngsat.com/astra19.html

and in that range 10700-10850MHz DVB-S/S2 (not analog PAL) transponders according to lyngsat.com are:

TP01) 10729 V, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3
TP02) 10744 H, DVB-S QPSK, 22000, 5/6
TP03) 10773 H, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3
TP04) 10788 V, DVB-S QPSK, 22000, 5/6
TP05) 10818 V, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3
TP06) 10832 H, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3

ok, let's not now look at the blind-scan results on "picture 02)" and "picture 04)":

* "picture 02)" or "Vertical":

1039061 kHz, 22000 kSps, DVBS-QPSK, FEC 5/6: 1039061 kHz = 1039 MHz and in our case LOF1 = 9750 or again using equation: "transponder frequency" (in MHz) = LNB LOF (in MHz) + carrier_frequency (in MHz) we have:

"transponder frequency" (in MHz) = 9750 + 1039 = 10789 MHz

so, finally we have 10789 V, 22000, DVB-S QPSK, 22000, 5/6 or that is TP04

1068562 kHz, 22000 kSps, DVBS2-8PSK, FEC 2/3: 1068562 kHz = 1069 MHz and in our case LOF1 = 9750 or again using equation: "transponder frequency" (in MHz) = LNB LOF (in MHz) + carrier_frequency (in MHz) we have:

"transponder frequency" (in MHz) = 9750 + 1069 = 10819 MHz

so, finally we have 10819 V, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3 or that is TP05

* "picture 03)" or "Horizontal":

994812 kHz, 22000 kSps, DVBS-QPSK, FEC 5/6: 994812 kHz = 995 MHz and

"transponder frequency" (in MHz) = 9750 + 995 = 10745 MHz

or we have 10745 H, DVB-S QPSK, 22000, 5/6 or that is TP02

1024319 kHz, 22000 kSps, DVBS2-8PSK, FEC 2/3: "transponder frequency" (in MHz) = 9750 + 1024 = 10774 MHz

or we have 10774 H, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3 or that's TP03

1083318 kHz, 22000 kSps, DVBS2-8PSK, FEC 2/3: "transponder frequency" (in MHz) = 9750 + 1083 = 10833 MHz

or we have 10833 H, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3 or that's TP06

so, as you can see blind-scan results are correct and consistent with Lyngsat list and TP02 to TP06 were successfully found during the blind-scan. it seems TP01 is missing - i'm too tired at the moment and i need to investigate why, but it's either because i just don't have signal on that transponder or because bug in the tool - maybe firstly found TP (with lowest frequency) in the list is not printed by the tool. also, i can confirm problem with 22 kHz tone activation. however, i believe you should admit that other than those small problems (yes, for me those are really small problems for first released versions) blind-scan results are correct and i hope my explanation will help you to understand the output of the tool better. i do also agree it's not very convenient and we need to make the tool do the above calculations and output "*.INI" file for direct import in the DVB applications, but that are improvements for the future versions.

[Geezerjem]

Hi Cody,

Firstly, my LNB is a standard universal one.

Secondly, many thanks for having a detailed look at the issues. I'll revisit my results from scratch and see if the results are clearer. I may have made some (albeit elderly) schoolboy errors along the way.

I appreciate it's early days for the tool (and the cards), so your input and help is very much appreciated. They really are excellent cards and my positive words about them at work may produce a few more sales. Most of the people I have told about the card will probably use it in WMC7 pointing at 28.5E, in which case it will work flawlessly. Doesn't find ITV HD, but I think that's a WMC7 issue as all of the non-Microsoft tools find it....

Thanks again,

[BluetoothBG]

@BluetoothBG,
The confusion was in fact caused by your setup. You've tried to scan high band transponders (22KHz on). The 850MHz correction frequency (see my table) is just the difference between the LOFs (10600-9750) Dunno whether it's a bug of the tool or the driver but high band blind scan fails and eventually crashes the system. IMHO even in a beta version this should have been checked before the release.

The 2nd and more important point is the blind scan performance. Your scan should cover the entire vertical plane in the low band -> 22kHz OFF, V (950 - 2150 MHz). Tests 1-3 show 3 different results. The lowest frequency you've got is 11215MHz but there are at least 8 more transponders with lower frequencies starting with 10716V, 9920, 7/8. All are DTH-transponders (http://www.flysat.com/1west.php) and no feeds. Either your reception is poor or there are more possible bugs (the other scans are redundant cos they are affected by the 22KHz bug).

Yes, my frist scan/screenshot was with 22kHZ ON and apparently there is some bug with this type of scan - output seems to be with frequencies of the low band summed with some unknown "constant".
Regarding the blind scan performance - I'm still testing it. My reception of 0.8W is not the best (it's currently a TD78 dish) and I'm doing the tests in the following way - enter some frequently used "feed transponders" in TransEdit with SR 3333 and 3332, then start software scan via TransEdit. Right after that I'm scanning using the BSTool and comparing the results. Up to this moment I'm unable to get the same results from the two applications but tonight I'll scan again while there are active feeds. The bad thing is that occasionally after scan I'm unable to tune on given frequency with TBS6921, it sort of hangs after using BSTool but I hope that will be fixed on next release.

@BluetoothBG

That's really wierd. The BS frequencies that you get directly from the tool have a different problem to mine (for the low band). Mine aren't even in the right ball park. I (after dividing by 1000 to get MHz) get between 7605 and 9621, both far below the expected 10700 to 12750. I don't know if you've sorted yours by frequency, by mine all come out of the tool in descending order. It really looks like the 6921 and 8921 BSTools produce different results (maybe different versions of the same tool).

Mine's 2.0.0.9 and none of the frequencies found are correct.

Just looked back at your screenshots and the results are in ascending order. The tools have got to be different.

I think that there might be some differences in BSTool versions because of the screenshots Cody posted - his BSTool doesn't have LOF1, LOF2 and LOF SW fields while mine has them. It is possible that he is using some development version just for this test as he doesn't have much time to look into details at this moment. I don't know why but my BSTool is outputting correct frequencies right from the scan (at least for the LOW band scan), there is no need to convert them as Cody said, which is a bit strange. Also at my previous post the results in the table are as they are outputted from BSTool, so there really may be a difference in versions.

[BlindFaith]

..and in that range 10700-10850MHz DVB-S/S2 (not analog PAL) transponders according to lyngsat.com are:

TP01) 10729 V, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3
TP02) 10744 H, DVB-S QPSK, 22000, 5/6
TP03) 10773 H, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3
TP04) 10788 V, DVB-S QPSK, 22000, 5/6
TP05) 10818 V, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3
TP06) 10832 H, DVB-S2 8PSK, 22000, 2/3
.
.
.so, as you can see blind-scan results are correct and consistent with Lyngsat list and TP02 to TP06 were successfully found during the blind-scan. it seems TP01 is missing - i'm too tired at the moment and i need to investigate why, but it's either because i just don't have signal on that transponder or because bug in the tool - maybe firstly found TP (with lowest frequency) in the list is not printed by the tool.

Hello,
Just for information, there is another transponder missing.
10847 V, DVB-S QPSK, 22000, 5/6 is within the scanning range (10847<10850)

Most of the people I have told about the card will probably use it in WMC7 pointing at 28.5E

For DTH satellites a blind scan tool is not very efficient. The frequency allocation is more or less static and ini files are readily available (e.g. per download from kingofsat ). Of course DTH is useful in the beginning for verification of the proper working of this tool, but the real application is feed hunting. Hopefully there are devs who can receive more than just a single fixed position to further improve the performance after the inevitable bugs have been fixed

[cody]

Doesn't find ITV HD, but I think that's a WMC7 issue as all of the non-Microsoft tools find it....

no matter that it's off-topic i want to mentioned, because it's the second time i'm hearing for such issue - some UK channels are not found in W7MC, but works in all other application. so, first time, such problem was reported to us, we did a lot of investigation and it turned out that if the user use UK post code then those channels are not found and as soon as the post code is changed to overseas post code then the channels are found - i'm not sure it's the same issue or just ITV HD parameters in the W7MC database or wrong. have you tried with manually scanning its transponder with:

Windows Media Center -> Tasks -> settings -> TV -> TV Signal -> Satellite Transponder Scan -> Single transponder scan

on the blind-scan issues - after my further explanation can you all here help me to do a summary of the issues. i re-read all your posts, but they are not very clear to me. so, i will start with:

issue 01) 22 kHz tone is not switched ON (i.e. no high-band blind scan is possible)
issue 02) it seems sometimes at least on 6921 after blind-scan the card is in consistent state and can't be used to get successful lock without restart
issue 03) (to be investigated after all other issues are fixed, because it could be affected by some of those issues) some TPs are missing during the blind-scan

i believe you get the idea - please, help me to make a list of the more crucial problems and then we start fixing them one by one.

[BluetoothBG]

issue 01) 22 kHz tone is not switched ON (i.e. no high-band blind scan is possible)
issue 02) it seems sometimes at least on 6921 after blind-scan the card is in consistent state and can't be used to get successful lock without restart
issue 03) (to be investigated after all other issues are fixed, because it could be affected by some of those issues) some TPs are missing during the blind-scan

Cody,
At least for me your list is exact:
- about issue 02 - TBS6921 is not responding (no lock on existing/known transponders) ONLY after blind scan with 22 kHz ON and needs "full" restart. From my observations this is the only case when the card is not responding. If I do only a low-band scan everything is OK.

Feature requests:
- is it possible scan to be some kind of automatic - you don't have to select polarity and hi/low band? It'll be good to have this options but leave them in "manual" mode and by default to be "automatic".
- input and output frequencies to be in MHz and in "transponder range" (I mean 10.7 to 12.75 GHz, not 950 MHz to 2150 MHz)
- provide some kind of filters (maybe for Symbol rate, e.g. if I want to scan only for transponders with SR < 10000 MSym/s and if this will make the scan faster - if there is no way to provide "input" filters for the NXP chip, these filters are not needed I think)

What I can show you as an example is a screenshot of SkyStar v2.3 hardware blind scan tool (source: http://www.r00t.cz/Misc/Blindscan)

This is exactly what I'll be glad to see as an TBS BSTool, if all of this options are available from the hardware design/NXP chip.