TBS 6921 release date

[cody]

- about issue 02 - TBS6921 is not responding (no lock on existing/known transponders) ONLY after blind scan with 22 kHz ON and needs "full" restart. From my observations this is the only case when the card is not responding. If I do only a low-band scan everything is OK.

it's good to know that actually issue 01 and 02 are connected and probably due to some mix up with the 22 kHz tone control between the BSTool and the driver. i will look at it as soon as i have some spare time from my on-going projects.

Feature requests:
- is it possible scan to be some kind of automatic - you don't have to select polarity and hi/low band? It'll be good to have this options but leave them in "manual" mode and by default to be "automatic".

noted and it will be done. however, in a little different way than you suggested, because no all LNB have hi-band and/or understand 22 kHz tone. so, polarity will be automatic (with way to select manual mode) and include check-box "do subsequent scan with 22 kHz on" to indicate after scan with 22 kHz off another one to be run with 22 kHz on for LNBs for which 22 kHz tone make difference.

- input and output frequencies to be in MHz and in "transponder range" (I mean 10.7 to 12.75 GHz, not 950 MHz to 2150 MHz)

"transponder range" actually depends on the LNB type and it's LOF frequencies - so, technically the range is always some sub-range of 950 MHz to 2150 MHz. maybe, why to make it more user-friendly is to add drop-down menu with predefined more common types of LNBs for user to select his/her LNB type and if not input the specifications of the LNB manually, which will allow to calculate the "transponder range".

- provide some kind of filters (maybe for Symbol rate, e.g. if I want to scan only for transponders with SR < 10000 MSym/s and if this will make the scan faster - if there is no way to provide "input" filters for the NXP chip, these filters are not needed I think)

What I can show you as an example is a screenshot of SkyStar v2.3 hardware blind scan tool (source: http://www.r00t.cz/Misc/Blindscan)

This is exactly what I'll be glad to see as an TBS BSTool, if all of this options are available from the hardware design/NXP chip.

here you misunderstand and there is no advantage in doing such thing - let me elaborate and explain. during blind-scan always the whole or some sub-range of 950 MHz to 2150 MHz is scanned - it's a lot like spectral analyzer - first all active frequencies in the interval are found and then their modulation parameters are determined. so, SkyStar v2.3 in the old DVB-S era probably was the only hardware for computer that can do blind-scan. however, it's very old and its chips are very old and if you look at VP310 and TSA5059 datasheets (PDF files are available online) you will understand that this is not "filter", but actually hardware limitation - they can do blind-scan for only predefined symbol rate interval. so, if you want to scan frequency interval X for all possible SRs then you need to do several blind-scans - as many as the number of the SR ranges and thus it's not performance-wise, but exactly the contrary it's slower. the latest third generation of DVB-S2 chips by NXP that is found on TBS 5921/6921/8921 scan for all possible SRs with a single pass, which is better from performance point of view. if my explanation is not clear, let me give example: old SkyStar v2.3 has 16 SR intervals and if you what to scan one frequency range for particular SR interval then the time for that is Y seconds (the time is always the same no matter of the SR interval, because as i mentioned first step of a blind-scan is like spectral analysis - find all active frequencies in the scanned frequency range) and that means for 16*Y seconds are needed to blind-scan of all possible SRs, but with newer NXP chips if they do spectral analysis part for Y1 seconds then Y1 seconds gives blind-scan of all possible SRs. so, in very short SkyStar v2.3 needs 16 passes, for what newer NXP chips do in one single pass.

[BluetoothBG]

noted and it will be done. however, in a little different way than you suggested, because no all LNB have hi-band and/or understand 22 kHz tone. so, polarity will be automatic (with way to select manual mode) and include check-box "do subsequent scan with 22 kHz on" to indicate after scan with 22 kHz off another one to be run with 22 kHz on for LNBs for which 22 kHz tone make difference.

"transponder range" actually depends on the LNB type and it's LOF frequencies - so, technically the range is always some sub-range of 950 MHz to 2150 MHz. maybe, why to make it more user-friendly is to add drop-down menu with predefined more common types of LNBs for user to select his/her LNB type and if not input the specifications of the LNB manually, which will allow to calculate the "transponder range".

Thanks, the entire idea of my post was to hopefully give you some ideas of what I'd like to see - how would it be done is entirely up to you and I'm sure we will be satisfied in the end
One more request:
- add SNR and BER status indicator; I know that BDA architecture in Windows limits this information to percents which most of the applications show, but if there is a way for BSTool to communicate directly with the chip it'll be great!

here you misunderstand and there is no advantage in doing such thing - let me elaborate and explain. during blind-scan always the whole or some sub-range of 950 MHz to 2150 MHz is scanned - it's a lot like spectral analyzer - first all active frequencies in the interval are found and then their modulation parameters are determined. so, SkyStar v2.3 in the old DVB-S era probably was the only hardware for computer that can do blind-scan. however, it's very old and its chips are very old and if you look at VP310 and TSA5059 datasheets (PDF files are available online) you will understand that this is not "filter", but actually hardware limitation - they can do blind-scan for only predefined symbol rate interval. so, if you want to scan frequency interval X for all possible SRs then you need to do several blind-scans - as many as the number of the SR ranges and thus it's not performance-wise, but exactly the contrary it's slower. the latest third generation of DVB-S2 chips by NXP that is found on TBS 5921/6921/8921 scan for all possible SRs with a single pass, which is better from performance point of view. if my explanation is not clear, let me give example: old SkyStar v2.3 has 16 SR intervals and if you what to scan one frequency range for particular SR interval then the time for that is Y seconds (the time is always the same no matter of the SR interval, because as i mentioned first step of a blind-scan is like spectral analysis - find all active frequencies in the scanned frequency range) and that means for 16*Y seconds are needed to blind-scan of all possible SRs, but with newer NXP chips if they do spectral analysis part for Y1 seconds then Y1 seconds gives blind-scan of all possible SRs. so, in very short SkyStar v2.3 needs 16 passes, for what newer NXP chips do in one single pass.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of how things work and comparison of card's capabilities. Actually I've never had SkyStar v2.3, just saw the information a few days ago and decided to show you how this blind-scan application looks like, if you can use some hints about TBS BSTool. Now I hope that the other users will suggest a few more things

[Geezerjem]

In short,

O M G !

I am so chuffed that Cody is on the case. The BS tool that comes out of this will be awesome, and I'm glad to be part of it ! The V2.3 Skystar2 IS an old card, but WAS the best of the bunch as far as I (and lots of others) was concerned. It's taken many years for me to make the jump to another card (Win7 was the last straw...) and, like all PC hardware, there have been huge advances in speed of operation and reductions in power consumption. Many modern cards have these advantages but the 6921/8921 (and the other one you mentioned) have the killer feature for us feed explorers. Blind Scan in hardware.

The Skystar2 BS tool is in no way faultless. In fact I've just set up an XP system with my Skystar2 to get back to a BS tool that sort of works. I was so pleased when it found 39 transponders on 30W with only the SR of 30000 ticked.

Bit puzzling though, as I hadn't connected the card to the dish yet.... How the memory plays tricks on you....

Anyway, if you've got this far, would it be possible for everyone who read this to put a minimum of this in their signature:

1. Their rough location
b. The rough West to East satellites they can pick up. I (and I guess other explorers) would like to get an idea of other peoples experiences.

If you want to...

P.S. Would it make sense to make a seperate Forum post on the BS Tool, as this one is about the release date of the 6921.... I'm all for it myself.

[BlindFaith]

"transponder range" actually depends on the LNB type and it's LOF frequencies - so, technically the range is always some sub-range of 950 MHz to 2150 MHz.

According to the specs the range is: "1.Receiving Frequency: 925~2175 MHz Tuning Range "

There are other parameters than SR-ranges that could influence the performance. Smaller frequency steps and longer dwelling times will increase the scan time but will lead to a more thourough search. So far we've only seen scans of wideband DTH-transponders. Still waiting for narrowband scans..

[cody]

i'm sure with time the software will advance. also, as i promised i will personally look into the issues as far as i'm done with most of the work on my on-going project, which is dual and single tuner DVB-T2 card, which main focus is the UK market as well as other countries that already switched to DVB-T2.

[pjm]

and what about the performance?

Main Features:
6.Supported by ....................... TSreader…

Has anyone used TSReader (with the TBS TSReaderSources support TBS6920,TBS6921,TBS8921,TBS8920,TBS6980，TBS6981 and TBS QBOX 2 from the download section - http://www.tbsdtv.com/download/common/TSReader_BDASource.rar) and successfully done a "Retune to MUX carrying this service" from the SDT table list.

Here the "Retune" fails & I get stuck forever in the "tune" dialog box. I have either use another BDA driver for TSReader, or remove the registry entries for TSReader & reinstall the software to use it again!

[Derrick]

@pjm, I didn't know about the existence of TSReader sources for TBS, thanks The bad thing is, that LNB control doesn't work. My 8921 is recognized as TBS 8920. Apparently all dlls are renamed 8290. Hopefully this will be fixed soon. To be able to perform my tests (blindscan etc.), I have the card connected now in a loop-through arrangement as a workaround. Thus lnb_control is now done by a STB (Vantage 8000S) and I can get a lock with tsreader.

[BlindFaith]

@Derrick,

Can you tell about blindscan of transponders with low SR?

[Derrick]

Here are some remarks about blind scan:

Low_SR_transponders are not detected at all!!
Due to missing 22KHz and diseqc, I've connected the 8921 to the loop through output of my Vantage 8000S. On DTH satellites with wide band transponders, blind scan works ok with some occasional missing transponders. But a totally different picture can be seen on sats with low_sr_transponders (scpc, feeds). On Eutelsat W2A at 10.0°E I've run a blind scan for the low_horizontal_plane. TBS_BS_Tool detected 3 carriers:

Code: Select All Code

Eutelsat W2A at 10.0°E, Low, Horizontal

Carrier_Freq(KHz)   Symbol_Rate(KHz)   Oper_Mode
8486574   =11013H      5632      DVBS-QPSK ,FEC 3/4
8154694   =11343H      27500      DVBS-QPSK ,FEC 3/4
8071391   =11429H      30000      DVBS2-8PSK ,FEC 5/6


A simultaneous blind scan with my Vantage yielded 17 transponders!! I've added these transponders to transedit (11429H, 30000, 8psk, 5/6 was not found by the 8000S because it does not list data_only_channels). 11429H was in fact the only new transponder from the TBS 8921. But all the low rate transponders were missing!!

Code: Select All Code

[SATTYPE]
1=0100
2=10.0°E_blindscan
3=6
4=9750
5=10600
6=11700

[DVB]
0=18
1=10984,H,3125,34,1,|01.31: TandbergTV
2=10988,H,3125,34,1,|01.31: DEFAULT
3=10995,H,4297,34,1,|01.31: Harmonic
4=11004,H,6111,34,1,|01.31: GlobeCast UK [Encoder 18]
5=11014,H,5632,34,1,|01.31: Arqiva
6=11022,H,6111,34,1,|01.31: Scopus Network Technologies
7=11126,H,7120,34,6,|01.31: BBC
8=11140,H,2893,34,1,|01.31: GlobeCast UK
9=11144,H,2893,34,1,|01.31: Lebanon
10=11163,H,2308,34,1,|01.31: IGP
11=11171,H,2532,34,1,|01.31: TandbergTV
12=11178,H,2532,34,1,|01.31: TandbergTV
13=11187,H,3000,34,1,|01.31:
14=11346,H,27500,34,1,|01.31: OpenMux IP Gateway
15=11429,H,30000,56,30,|01.31:
16=11623,H,2960,56,25,|01.31: IRIB
17=11627,H,2963,34,1,|01.31: IFILM
18=11631,H,1500,56,30,|01.31: Thaqalayn


The tools not only sucks for low_sr but also for very high symbol rates (e.g. 27,5W, 11495V, DVB-S2, 44100, qpsk, 9/10; 22W, 12601, DVB-S2, 45000, 8psk, 2/3)

My conclusion: blindscan sucks, the tool is absolutely useless

[cody]

@Derrick

what DLL exactly you used in TSReader - from where did you get it?

i can test on Eutelsat W2A at 10.0°E and investigate more, but i think blind-scan using loop-out of your receiver won't give good performance/results, because additional noise is added and first 22kHz tone problems with the BSTool have to be resolved.